updated list of (Jungian arche-)types of irritating students

One of the three (along with this and this) most googled and linked-to posts on this blog is "updated list of (Jungian arche-)types of irritating professors." Basic fairness dictates equivalent lists for students, administrators, and support staff. Today we begin to rectify this.

This will be a work in progress. I'll add your suggestions, and revise the names to conform to "Rate Your Students" terminology. [Also see Philosophy Factory's breakdown here.] I hope this ultimately catalogs all of their types, with links.

1. Amy Air Calv: Drawbacks- Living embodiment of all that is unfair about what Jameson used to call "late capitalism." That is, most students don't have parents with enough time, money, and bad parenting skills to swoop in with the family lawyer at the helicopter machine gun port ("Get some! Get some!").  Be prepared to give Amy an incomplete (though she never showed up to class), extra credit (for work not offered to others), and allow her to redo plagiarized work. Amy, her parents, and their lawyers create not only massive extra work for everyone concerned but also (especially among untenured) gut wrenching fear that administrators will get angry at you for not "taking care of it" in a way that doesn't force them to deal with yet another helicopter. And since you can also get in trouble for not being fair to the other students, there is nothing you can do. You, the professor, are screwed. And, moreover, you better not slip up once in any way, and you better be a canned lecture regurgitating robot up there in front of everybody (e.g. one of my colleagues at a previous university slipped the "F" word in class, and this was so psychically traumatic that Amy's F (the grade, not the word) was removed from her record and my colleague who had won teaching awards was reprimanded). Benefits- Often these students have nice social skills and an immense skill at flattery before the velvet gloves come off and the iron fist descends. This could conceivably help set a tone where the other students think the class material is worth learning. [Also see here.]
   
2. Andy Angry: Drawbacks- Andy is perversely empowered by school shooters, because professors really, really fear him now. If he talks in class, he will mostly just complain bitterly about you and the fact that he has to take this class. If he attempts to engage the material, this will involve examples that are not only irrelevant but also racist, sexist, and homophobic. If you rebuke him even for just lack of relevance, he will present himself as part of the great victimized conservative movement in this country. If he has prison ink and/or that psychotic I-will-kill-you-with-less-feeling-than-when-I-magnify-glass-burned-ants-as-a-child look in his eyes, you probably should be too scared to report him for academic misconduct. Benefits- May not talk in class. May not show up to class much. To the extent the anger gets expressed other than voting Republican and spewing diatribes ripped off from talk radio, he is statistically likely to take it out on somebody other than you and the students. Most positively though, with Bush/Cheney/Rove's declining political fortunes, anger combined with idiocy has become uncool to our students. As a result, the Angry Andy herd is being thinned out.
3. Aubrey Ubermench: (from Mark Silcox) Drawbacks- Has read loads of Ayn Rand or Nietzsche outside of class, and only takes an interest in the content of the course when something said by the prof or the textbook author serves to confirm his absolutely irrevocable sense of his own superiority over fellow man. Benefits- Sometimes is actually willing to work pretty hard, which I guess is a benefit, as is the little thrill of pure malice that one gets when giving him a final grade of 'B.'
4. Chester Cheater: Drawbacks- Given most university policies, Chester ends up taking up a tremendous amount of time. You have to write up a report documenting the plagiarism for the Dean of Students office and then deal with them as well as Chester. Once after giving Chester an incomplete so he could redo the assignment (at the encouragement of the Dean, though without tenure I didn't really have a choice), he cheated on the makeup. I wrote up the report on that and for my labors had to go before the academic dishonesty committee, which included a student campus activist with an uncanny resemblance to Toulouse Lautrec. I kept thinking of those weird paintings of ballerinas. The star chamber grilled me about how my syllabus didn't say enough about plagiarism the whole time since they could not be told this was Chester's second chance. I couldn't tell them why I'd given him an incomplete and they acted as if I was covering something up. Then, while deciding the young man's fate, they made me sit in a room with Chester for an hour. He was very angry and freaking out about getting an F. It sucked, but my situation is better than an untenured friend of mine (at another university) who has been forced by the academic dishonesty committee to give the plagiarizing students the grade they would have gotten had they not plagiarized and then subtract one letter grade from that. They both got B's and continued to openly mock him the whole semester. Benefits- Though the system adds massive amounts of work when you are desperately trying to publish enough to not be fired (as well as do right by the non-cheaters and do administrative stuff), the benefit is that you can convince the student that your hands are tied in a way that minimizes the chance that violence gets aimed at you. [Also see here and here.]
5. Connor Colleague- Drawbacks- When you are freaking out about the astoundingly uncharitable things referees for peer-reviewed journals have said, it does absolutely nothing for your ego to have Connor tell you "good job" after class. And when he nods and smiles after judging you to have made a good point in class, deep existential anxiety descends. Is this what you slaved through grad. school for? Is this why you lick the boots of your at best clueless baby boomer colleagues? And when Connor "corrects" you and other students on some point for the eight hundredth time, you begin to feel the need to smash something. Benefits- The other students hate him a lot more than you do. In addition, the thought, "Jesus Christ, was I like that as an undergraduate?" might inspire well-needed humility and kindness. Or it might deepen the despair.
6. Darla Dropslip- Drawbacks- Benefits- [Also see here.]
7. Donald Dope-Drawbacks- Sends incoherent e-mails at odd hours of the morning. Takes up space with his underachieving self. Sometimes smells bad. Benefits- Generally hurting nobody but himself. Will hook you up with some good s**t (please don't report this blog to the war on drugs; that was a joke). [Also see here.]
   
8. Eddie Email- Drawbacks- Your administration might be on Eddie's side, since b.s. boilerplate about using new technologies doesn't cost anything. Well, it doesn't cost anything other than the six figure salary of the Vice Provosts who, in between forcing faculty to write horrendously time consuming (yet unread and useless) reports, reflexively spew the kind of management school garbage that would make any private company go broke within a month. You, the professor, must develop overwhelming passive aggressive kung fu in two directions, fending off students and administrators alike (just think of the time Kane had to fight multiple people blindfolded; you are Kane). Benefits- What does not kill you makes you stronger. The skill at dealing with Eddie is transferable. First, you learn to have no guilt whatsoever when confronted by Eddie about the fact that you did not answer his four e-mails sent to you after midnight the day before the test or assignment was due. This leads you to be able to ignore all of the deranged e-mails sent to you during the brief period between the final exam and when all of your grading has to be done. Then, finally, you are self actualized, staring down from the Nietzschean summit of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, learning to deal assertively with your students, colleagues, and administrators while brushing off unreasonable demands (WARNING: As with the thing about buying drugs from Donald Dope, this is a joke. Do not attempt being assertive in your home department. We are trained professionals on this blog.) [Also see here, here, and here.]
9. Evan Evangelist: Drawbacks- His smarmy condescension towards the hellbound can grate. Weirdly, Evan is usually pretty smart I.Q.-wise. But then if the Bible is as important as he claims, why doesn't he take some Religious Studies classes and actually learn about its history of composition as well as what those words actually mean in the original languages? Could it be because all students as smart as Evan who do this end up giving up on the claim that the Bible is literally true and hence stop being Evan. Evan is smart, but his religious mandate to convert you the professor (combined with blindness to contrary evidence and reason) retards his ability to write a decent paper, can make him disruptive in class, and entails that you will probably waste hours with him in your office. Benefits- Suffering at the hands of graduated Evans in the Reagan Administration led the Dead Kennedys to pen two punk rock classics, which you can hear here and here. Sometimes Evan's papers are genuinely funny, especially if (as is often the case) he is a closeted homosexual who thinks that Jesus was as obsessed about gay sex as he and his fellow conservative evangelicals. Example- I rarely teach ethics, but in the course of doing so, two separate Evans have argued in final papers that gay marriage must be illegal because if it was legal men would just marry one another and the human species would die out. Well. . . there's something to make you go "hmm." Finally, Evan will often give you weird a-historical books that are popular with evangelicals. If you have more than passing anthropological interest in the poison coursing through the veins of our great Republic, then these books are a goldmine (though sadly not a velvet one).
10. Fanny Facebook: Drawbacks- Sometimes it is much more difficult to teach when students are so clearly in no way engaged with what the professor is saying. It distracts the other students too. Benefits- She invariably has a wide variety of facial expressions depending upon what is going on with all her Facebook "friends." As she instant messages and notes her way to an F in the class, you get to see the fundamental emotions (the ones we have in common with dogs and lower primates: angry, sad, scared, happy) light across her face several times a class period, all having nothing to do with what's going on in the real world surrounding her. This can be entertaining. Also, from a teaching perspective, is it any worse than the alternative of being stared at in a bored and hostile manner? [Also see here and here.]
11. Freddie Fratboy: Drawbacks- His very existence is irrefutable proof that "faculty governance" is a complete lie. If faculty had any control over the universities, then there would be no frats, and this ass-hat would be ridden out of town on a rail. Q.E.D. Benefits- The Dead Kennedys wrote a great song about Freddie. Greatest benefit of post-manufacturing economy is that Freddie is now downwardly mobile and will end up taking orders from the nerds he picked on in high school. Is at least courteous enough to identify himself with the sullen and condescending demeanor, a-literacy, submental sense of humor, and stupid looking backwards baseball cap. Most Americans now instinctively know that: (1) fraternity without liberty or equality is fascism, (2) there is something deeply wrong with buying friends, and (3) date rape should not be an intramural sport. [Also see here.]
12. Grandy Gradegrubber- Drawbacks- Sometimes Grandy has a secret super-villian identity and by his behavior you realize that he periodically morphs into Marshall Manipulator and/or Amy Air Calvary, a transformation that terrifyingly does not even require a Greatest-American-Hero style super-suit. One day Grandy himself is turning on the charm while indicting your unreasonable demand that assignments instantiate such ephemera as grammar, clarity, and having a thesis, and the next day he's morphed and you are dealing with chairs and administrators. Benefits- None. Grandy is so self-deluded that life will never really kick him in the pants, so any revenge fantasies of your own involve self deception. For his entire life, Randy will radically reinterpret everything so that it does not contradict his view of himself as actually talented and deserving. Even worse, if he is socio-pathic enough to succeed at convincing others of his genius, he might end up being Chancellor or Provost of your university, or even President of these United States from the years 2000-2008 C.E. And as the final insult, it's not clear that Dead Kennedys wrote a song indicting this jerkypants. [Also see here.]
13. Ingrid Involved: (from Neal Hebert) Drawbacks- Frequently misses class (with signed notes by the Dean of Students) to be the Student Government representative at national fundraisers for the University's newest capital outlay program. Often falls asleep during lectures after this week's Up Til Dawn St. Jude's Children's Hospital fundraiser. Assumes student involvement should substitute for academic achievement, and predicts her grades with the efficiency of a horse-bookie in order to ensure that she maintains the University-mandated 2.2 semestrial and cumulative GPA to stay involved. Incessantly asks for five minutes of class time to announce the newest SG initiative or program to bolster student "cohesion," leaving less time for lectures and discussion. Benefits- If hasn't adopted hostile administrative stance towards professors, can often provides useful context and information to supplement rampant professorial speculations about why the University is slashing academic/humanities funding. If professors suck up to Ingrid, and she is so inclined, then her ties with administrators can lead to the bestowal of university-awarded teaching awards and the monetary pittance that goes with them. Incessantly asks for five minutes of class time to announce the newest SG initiative or program to bolster student "cohesion," leaving less time for lectures and discussion. [Also see here.]
14. Larry Pre-law: (from Robby B) Drawbacks- Professes to everyone not interested that his major is "pre-law," though there is no "pre-law" major; will not claim his real major because he thinks it may not be impressive enough to the "ladies," though it's all moot because he will get into law school anyway because of some horrible legacy plan. Is in your class because of equivocation on his part entailing that what lawyers and philosophers do are somehow the same. Larry could be Freddie Fratboy, or at least alot like him. Always wants to cross-examine you in the manner of the lawyer shows watches on television while drunk and/or high and feels he is uniquely qualified because of his job as a "runner" at his uncle's law firm 10 hours a week. Benefits- ?
15. Marshall Manipulator: Drawbacks- Benefits-
16. Mary Maternal: Drawbacks- Takes it upon herself to speak for the whole class in petitioning for you to change the date of the exam. Almost always has some rude habit (bringing McDonald's "food" to class, horrifically smelly perfume, open-mouthedly smacking on gum, inability to sit still) that seems inexplicable given everything else about her. Twice before has bullied the department chair/staff into giving her my home phone number so she could harangue me about the exam. Benefits- The most obnoxious of the male students tend to behave much better when Mary is in the class.
17. Nancy Nude: Drawbacks- Anything critical you say about her just makes you look sexist in the 1950's American Taliban kind of way (one of my colleagues once confronted Nancy (at the time wearing vaguely see-through pajama bottoms, a too-small tube top, and sandals) in our departmental office and said, "Young lady. Does your mother know you go out in public dressed like that?" He is a nice guy who really wanted to help her, but he sounded like a tool.). Anything humorous you might say about Nancy sounds ugly and sexist in the "free" (for asinine bearded men) love 1960's kind of way. Benefits- Generally not a bad student. Perhaps a visual palliative for pathetic midlife crisis professors contemplating all the money they are going to lose in their second divorce. [Also see here.]
18. Randy Returning Student- Drawbacks- Is likely to predicate sentences with "in the real world." Benefits- At least it talks. [Also see here.]
19. Sammy Sullen- Drawbacks- Though Sammy's in class behavior runs the gamut from slouching and  looking disgruntled all the way to openly mocking the professor in class, he always makes teaching a drag. Unfortunately, in freshman classes, Sammy can constitute up to half of the male students. This is because he has not yet had the high school hegemony of "cool" violently kicked out of him.  Benefits- I am just the boot to do it. [Also see here and here.]
    
20. Samuel Sickly- Drawbacks- If you routinely depart from your syllabus for him, then you have also routinely rewarded dishonesty. Sometimes when he really is sick he shows up in your office to let you know it's for real and in the process gets germs all over you. Plus, it's really none of your business! I don't even want to know what an anal fissure is, much less that they are the reason Samuel can't make it to class all semester. Finally, so many students now do the Elvis Presley thing of prescribed speed during the daytime (for their ADHD) and prescribed downers at night (for the prescribed speed) that you can end up with nobody in class doing the work on time because they all have psychological excuses. But then there are no rules. Everything is permitted and you not only have war of all against all where life is nasty, brutish, and short but also anarchy descends in a poetic sense, and we're left with a planet of these sick bastards up to no good snuffling towards Bethlehem. Benefits- I'm serious, the drug-addled Fat Elvis was way better than Skinny Elvis. Fat Elvis fired the horrible Jordiniares back up singers and regained artistic control from Colonel Parker. And he rocked. Go watch the "Aloha Show" if you doubt this. The fact that Americans voted for the Skinny Elvis stamp is just one more example of how we are failing as educators. [Also see here.]
21. Simon Superkeener:  Drawbacks- The other students resent you the professor, for not shutting this windbag up. Benefits- At least it does talk. Learning to deal with Simon may help you learn to deal with other socially hopeless people. William S. Burroughs says that you should look people like this in the eye and think, "I hate you. I love you. I hate you. I love you. . ." until they shut up. If that doesn't work you are supposed to say, "Tell a shrink. I am not being compensated for listening to this." When you find that neither of these things work with Simon, the last vestiges of your faith in the author of Naked Lunch will vanish. This is not such a bad thing. Ultimately he himself really was just the loudest drunk at the bar, a beatnik Simon if you will. [Also see here and here.]
22. Seymore Sleepy: Drawbacks- If he is the type of Seymore that stays at home to sleep, chances are that he will hassle you about his grade. Benefits- If he is the type of Seymore who actually comes to class, only to immediately fall asleep, great fun can be had at his expense. You can hide his backpack. If your classroom is on the ground floor, you can get the entire class to sneak out and stare at him through the windows. When you bang on the glass he'll briefly wonder where he is.
23. Sparky Spook: Drawbacks- Even though Sparky misses over half the class periods, he will inevitably: (a) angrily and self-righteously blame you for his bad grade, and (b) show up on the day student evaluation forms are handed out. Benefits- The Stoics or the Romans (I don't know exactly who, but I'm sure it was guys who wore those weird skirt things and sandles but still kicked butt with swords) used to say that hunger is the best dressing. Likewise, some things are better for their absence. Almost certainly Sparky is. [Also see here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.]
24. Stanley Student Athlete: Drawbacks- In most cases is illiterate and aggrieved. Can send you into an intensive care unit should he so desire. Instead of wasting four years ruining his health via tendon damage and bodily injuries, might actually excel academically at a community college, or perhaps vocational-technical school, or perhaps whatever is on offer at the correctional facility he may still wind up in. In rare cases is actually a nice guy, which makes the fact that he is a dimbulb getting ripped off by a world ruled by idiots all the more depressing. In very rare cases, may actually not be a dimbulb, which makes the fact that he could have afforded college without destroying his health and missing all his classes even more depressing. Finally, with the exception of professional wrestling and competitive figure skating, sports are boring and stupid. I mean, this is a university for God's sake. Why don't they build a huge-ass stadium for the chess team or math squad or some s**t like that? Benefits-  If you are lucky enough to teach in a department that does not have required classes (As a Philosopher, it would be remiss for me not to say "Booyah! In your face English Department!") and maintains anything approaching standards (I would say something about "general studies" (or whatever equivalent your university has to try to keep graduation rates high enough to game the relevant U.S. News and World Report statistic), education, kinesiology, business, or sports medicine here, but that would be rude; let me humbly suggest that interested parties look at average student GPA's in these majors (the highest) as well as average SAT scores (the lowest) for people in them), then you won't have to deal with Stanley. [Also see here and here.]
25. Wally Warbucks: Drawbacks- Will miss large swaths of class due to trips funded by super-rich parents. Benefits- Will miss large swaths of class due to trips funded by super-rich parents. [Also see here.]
    
26. Wanda Waterworks: Drawbacks- While weeping, tells you things that are none of your business, usually to explain missing over half of the class periods while simultaneously trying to get you to violate the stated policy of your syllabus. As with Samuel Sickley, if you reliably respond in the desired manner then you have rewarded dishonesty multiple times, and for that matter are always being unfair to students who have rightfully internalized the wisdom of Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, and Seneca. Benefits- The best thing to do is to solicitously direct Wanda to the health clinic, the ombudsperson, or the relevant administrative staff. If she's faking, then it's a brilliant passive aggressive bit of psychological kung fu on your part. If she's not, then maybe you piled up some good Karma and increased the chance of not being reborn as a tree-sloth or worse next time around.
27. Wilbur Whinger: [Also see here.]
28. Willy Wayward: (from Mark Silcox) Drawbacks - Wears a carefully cultivated goatee and expensive concert shirts for bands that are sort of indie and esoteric, but maybe not really (think Weezer, Coldplay, System of a Down, etc.). Is enrolled in Business School, "cause my folks, like, thought it would be a good idea." Claims to be a guitar virtuoso. Develops morbid temporary fascination with liberal arts topics, leading to endless conversations during office hours about The Meaning of (His) Life. Will not read, cannot write. Professes to despise the prospect of a career in business, but would never seriously dream of leaving Business School. Benefits- At least he's interested, albeit perhaps in the sense that hypocrisy is vice paying tribute to virtue..

Comments

[Mark Silcox]

>(e.g. one of my colleages at a previous university slipped the "F" word in class, and this was so psychically traumatic that Amy's F (the grade, not the word) was removed from her record and my colleague who had won teaching awards was reprimanded)

Dude, no way. This really happened??

[Rate Your Students]

A number of our readers have sent us this link...well done!

Fanny Facebook cracks us up!

Best,
RYS

[Mark Silcox]

How about Aubrey Ubermench? This is the kid who has read loads of Ayn Rand or Nietzsche outside of class, and only takes an interest in the content of the course when something said by the prof or the textbook author serves to confirm his absolutely irrevocable sense of his own superiority over his fellow man.

Some of these suckers are actually willing to work pretty hard in the class, which I guess is a benefit, as is the little thrill of pure malice that I always get when I give them a final grade of 'B.'

[Neal Hebert]

Aubrey Ubermensch is choice.

And what's great about this is that I know the people compiling it are well aware of what stereotypes they were as undergrads, and it makes the humor way better.

-neal

[Jon]

Yeah, it's pathetic. If my shrink during my undergraduate years was one of those people who hypnotized you and convinced you that you had multiple personality, then the above list would have been a significant subset of my "alters."

Neal, you have to at least match Mark by suggesting one. It's a blot on your manhood if you let him get over on you this way. There's got to be some way that student government stereotypically makes some students more irritating in a classroom? Something like that?

[Neal Hebert]

I accept your filthy challenge, Jon.

I present Ingrid Involved.

Drawbacks: Frequently misses class (with signed notes by the Dean of Students) to be the Student Government representative at national fundraisers for the University's newest capital outlay program. Often falls asleep during lectures after this week's Up Til Dawn St. Jude's Children's Hospital fundraiser. Assumes student involvement should substitute for academic achievement, and predicts her grades with the efficiency of a horse-bookie in order to ensure that she maintains the University-mandated 2.2 semestrial and cumulative GPA to stay involved. Asks for five minutes of class time to announce the newest SG initiative or program to bolster student cohesion, leaving less time for lectures.

Benefits: Provides useful context and information to supplement rampant professorial speculations about why the University wants to slash academic funding. Strong ties with administrators can aid professors in receiving university-awarded teaching awards when Ingrid is a letter of recommendation or nominates a professor. Asks for five minutes of class time to announce the newest SG initiative or program to bolster student cohesion, leaving less time for lectures.

***********

That's what I've got. It took me five minutes. If hostilities continue, I will raise the stakes further and grind both Silcox your own hubristic attempts beneath the heel of my boot.

[Robby B.]

Neal and/or Mark,

What do you guys think of Ursula LeGuin? In your considered opinion, is she worth reading?

Thanks!

[Jon]

O.K. I see your Aubrey Ubermensch and Ingrid Involved with Donald Dope. Mark, care to raise?

[Mark Silcox]

Beat this one, suckas!

Wally Wayward - DRAWBACKS - Wears a carefully cultivated goatee and expensive concert shirts for bands that are sort of indie and esoteric, but maybe not really (think Weezer, Coldplay, System of a Down). Is enrolled in Business School, "cause my folks, like, thought it would be a good idea." Claims to be a guitar virtuoso. Develops morbid temporary fascination with liberal arts topics, leading to endless conversations during office hours about The Meaning of (His) Life. Will not read, cannot write. Professes to despise the prospect of a career in business, but would never seriously dream of leaving Business School. BENEFITS - Hey, at least he's interested.

[Mark Silcox]

Robby: I've never realy gotten into U.K. Le Guin - other people's descriptions always made her seem like too much of an earnest 60s utopian for my tastes. I did read THE DISPOSSESSED, though. At the time I found it rather a slog, but a lot of the plot and imagery has really stuck with me, and I remember thinking that it deserved its status as a "Sci-Fi classic" a lot more than toothless pretenders like STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND or THE TERMINAL EXPERIMENT.

[Jon]

Crap, I fold. Neal? Anyone else want in?

[Robby B.]

Here's one-

Pre-law Larry - DRAWBACKS- Professes to everyone not interested that his major is "pre-law," though there is no "pre-law" major; will not claim his real major because he thinks it may not be impressive enough to the ladies at the bar, though it doesn't matter because he will get into law school anyway because of some legacy plan. Is in your class because of some equivocation on his part that what lawyers and philosophers do are somehow the same. Pre-law Larry could be Freddie fratboy, or at least alot like him. Always wants to cross-examine you because he watches too many lawyer shows on television and feels he is uniquely qualified because of his job as a "runner" at his uncle's law firm 10 hours a week. BENEFITS - ?

[Neal Hebert]

I'm still in.

But it's late, I'll hit it up tomorrow - as well as chiming in with my thoughts on LeGuin.

-neal

[Neal Hebert]

I'll do an entry tomorrow to the on-going war, but before I go to sleep I'll talk briefly about LeGuin.

Mark is into more Sci-Fi than I am, I suspect from our frequent posts to each other - but I'm more into Fantasy.

So my exposure to LeGuin comes through her fantasy series A Wizard of Earthsea. There's some unbelievably cool stuff in the first three books, stuff that I'll remember for a very long time that was undoubtedly groundbreaking at the time it was published.

But I don't think her fantasy holds up today, which is certainly heresy but I'll stand by it.

What she did that's really cool is she wrote short novels that had a couple really cool ideas, and didn't try to include everything but the kitchen sink. She engaged her ideas well, and told the stories that needed to be told: they were often dreamlike and almost fabulist instead of fantasy, and they were good.

But the problem for me is that there are other writers who wrote short work who are just as groundbreaking in their own right that are a lot more fun to read. Glenn Cook's fantasies alone are worth mentioning: although he's a lot younger, his novels are as much pulp as LeGuin's. But he unerringly picks cooler themes to explore and aims for more specific stories: in so doing, he hits at the universal more often than LeGuin.

The other groundbreaking thing that LeGuin did was break down the white hegemony of Tolkienic fantasy - noble, since the only people of color in Middle Earth were green (and I suspect one could claim the Orcs and Trolls were a Tory cipher for blacks without being the least bit uncharitable).

The problem is that the non-white cultures often seem to me to be flat - unusual for a sci-fi writer, since most get their kicks from presenting non-Western cultures.

If you want to read a fantasy novel that features LeGuin's ethnic/racial diversity without the flatness, I very highly recommend David Anthony Durham's novel "Acacia" for you, Robbie. First of all, Durham's never written fantasy before - preferring instead to do historical fictions or straight works in the catch-all literary genre - and his debut is a fucking doozy.

He is compared to LeGuin for the diversity of his cultures and peoples - and as a black author with a particular interest in the diaspora and the slave trade as an area of research, he should have a good handle on that. But he is also compared to some of heavy hitters in the "epic" subgenre of Fantasy: George R. R. Martin, Stephen Erikson. I also was strongly reminded of Canadian fantastist Guy Gavriel Kay writing, given how lush the prose is and how skillful Durham is at evoking a feeling in the reader that is genuine and moving.

So yeah, it depends on what you were reading LeGuin for as a fantasy writer: if you want something pulpy and short, look for Glenn Cook's "Black Company" (book one in a series of the same name that should blow your socks off) or Cook's "Chronicle of the Dread Empire" (which I'm currently reading because it was an earlier series of novels and it seriously rocks).

If you want believeable world-building and cultures, David Anthony Durham's "Acacia" will give you that while making you think and feel, and you'd sacrifice none of the exuberance of story one comes to expect from a pulp writer of LeGuin's talents.

From where I'm sitting, though, you could get everything you get from an Ursula K. LeGuin novel - the pulp feel, controlled writing, complete commitment to an economic use of theme - by trying Naomi Novik's three book series "Temeraire" as soon as possible. I read them in approximately a week, and am starting the fourth eagerly.

They're pulp Navy sort of stories, married to a coming of age story that happens to be how Capt. Laurence serves as a father figure to the dragon Temeraire. They're sky fights, swashbuckling, love, all that stuff. It's funny and it's moving.

But all of the above books are pretty good substitutions if you were flirting with giving LeGuin's fantasy a try.

I haven't read her sci-fi, so I'd be less good at recommending that.

But I'll throw a couple of sci-fi's out there that I loved.

Iain Banks:
Excession

Dan Simmons:
"Hyperion" & "The Fall of Hyperion;" or "Ilium" and "Olympos". Both will blow your minds.

Cory Doctorow:
"Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom"

Ted Chiang:
"The Story of Your Life and other stories"

Discloser: I am obsesed with Doctorow as a writer. I think he's prodigious talented and writes short novels.

I've read both Dan Simmmons novels, and recommend

Thee's more coming.

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[Tina]

What about ORS...Older Returning Students...you know those moms who come back and when class has 2 minutes left will ask some timebomb question that makes the class last an extra 15 minutes. The constatntly respond to every question the professor asks, has 50 questions about every assignments, and because of it never has anyone to work with. I remember those ORS........ This is similar to one you already had, just now an acronym.

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